MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think I was confused about the two meetings and that these minutes do not show you to have been present. There was such a conference as Warlimont describes but it was not the same conference at which Kaltenbrunner was present, is that correct?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes, that is correct. I know only of this one meeting in the late afternoon of 6 June between Warlimont and myself.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And that is the conference to which he refers in the first paragraph?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: No, the conference in the afternoon has nothing to do with the first paragraph which I just read, and has no connection with it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The third paragraph had no connection with the first meeting, you say?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Paragraph Number 3 has no connection with Paragraph Number 1. I had no knowledge of Paragraph Number 1. I mentioned before that I was given the task of conferring with the OKW about the definition of acts which were to be considered as violations of international law, and criminal acts.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Let us ask it once more so we will have no misunderstanding about it. The conference referred to in Paragraph Number 3 of Warlimont’s minutes is a conference between you and him later that afternoon and had nothing to do with the Kaltenbrunner conference which was held earlier in the day.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, what was the situation in the beginning of 1944 with reference to the bombing of German cities?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: The situation was that the air raids had increased in intensity and in the beginning of 1944 they were very heavy.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That was becoming very embarrassing to the Reich Marshal, was it not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Of course it was very unpleasant for the Luftwaffe, because their defensive strength was too weak to stave off these attacks.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And they were being blamed somewhat and the Reich Marshal was being blamed for the air attacks, was he not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Of course, that goes without saying.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the Reich Marshal was in the embarrassing position of having assured the German people back in 1939 that they could be protected against air attacks on the German cities. You understood that fact, did you not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I understand that to be so, but I also know that the conditions in 1939, which led to this statement, were entirely different from those of 1944 when the whole world was against us.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But the fact was that German cities were being bombed and the German people had looked to the Reich Marshal to protect them, is that not a fact?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: It is clear that the German people expected the Luftwaffe to use all available means to ward off these attacks.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, what were the relations between Göring and Hitler at this time?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: May I ask to have the question repeated? I did not understand it clearly.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was the relation between Göring and Hitler at this time? Was there any change in the relations as this bombing of German cities progressed?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: The relations between the Reich Marshal and the Führer were no doubt worse than they had been before. Whether that was only due to the conditions caused by the air warfare is not known to me.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were very close to Reich Marshal Göring throughout this period, the entire period of the war, were you not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I do not know what you mean by close in the relations between a commander-in-chief and his adjutant.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you were particularly friendly; he had great confidence in you and you had great regard for him. Is that not a fact?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I can confirm that, but unfortunately only on very rare occasions did the Reich Marshal disclose his real motives.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were with him on the 20th day of April 1945, when he sent the telegram proposing to take over the government of Germany himself, and was arrested and condemned to death?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes, I was present at that time.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the SS seized you and the Reich Marshal and several others and searched your houses, seized all your papers, and took you prisoner, did they not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: It is correct that on 23 April at 1900 hours we were surrounded. The Reich Marshal was led to his room and from that moment on he was kept closely guarded; later we were separated and put into solitary confinement. Finally we were separated from him altogether by SS troops stationed at the Berghof.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And this occurred at Berchtesgaden?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: It happened at Berchtesgaden.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think you have told us that you were all supposed to be shot by the SS at the time of the surrender and were supposed to approve it by your own signature. Is that correct?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: No, that is not quite correct.
I know that an order existed that the Reich Marshal with his family and his entourage should be shot in Berlin at the time of capitulation.
The second thing you mentioned refers to something else, namely, that we were to be compelled to report voluntarily to the SS. I must say, in order to be just, that this SS leader would far rather not have had us there at that time so as not to have to carry out this order. At that time we were already separated from the Commander-in-Chief.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was the state of your knowledge about the activities of the SS? What was the SS and what was its relation to the Wehrmacht at this time? What was its relation to the Luftwaffe? Tell us about the SS.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I can only say this much, that SS was a comprehensive term, that the SD, Gestapo, and Waffen-SS were quite separate subdivisions, and that the Gestapo was an instrument of repression which restricted much personal freedom.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the Waffen-SS likewise, is that not a fact?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: The Waffen-SS was a military force. I myself had neither trouble nor any friction with them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But what about the SS proper? Witness, you know this situation about the SS, I am sure, and you impress me as wanting to tell us candidly what you know about this situation, and I wish you would tell us a little, what the influence of the SS was on these situations.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I pointed out once before that as a purely military adjutant I am able to give you information only about the Luftwaffe, but I am not in a position to say anything about general things of which I have no expert knowledge but merely personal opinions.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, was not the SS the subject of a good deal of discussion among you officers, and was not everybody aware that the SS was an organization like the Gestapo which was repressive and cruel?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: In the Luftwaffe we had so many troubles of our own because of the growing air power of the enemy that we had no time to worry about anything else.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But you knew, did you not, about the campaign against the Jews of Germany and the Jews of occupied countries?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I did not know about the campaign against the Jews as it has been presented here and in the press.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I do not want to interrogate you on what is in the press, but do you want the Tribunal to understand that you had no knowledge of a campaign against the Jews in Germany?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I only knew