KÖRNER: Where was Thälmann? I did not quite understand the question.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Where was he when he became a victim of an air attack?
KÖRNER: As far as I heard, he was said to be in the Buchenwald concentration camp.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And how long had he been there?
KÖRNER: That I do not know; I have no knowledge of that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were you present at the conversation between Thälmann and Göring?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What did he complain about then in the concentration camp?
KÖRNER: About treatment during interrogations.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That was the only complaint he made?
KÖRNER: Yes, as far as I can remember. The Reich Marshal asked him whether he had good food and whether he was properly treated. All these things were discussed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Thälmann found no fault with the concentration camp except treatment during interrogation?
KÖRNER: Yes; as far as I remember that was his chief complaint.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were the Communists regarded by the Nazis as enemies of the country?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And concentration camps, then, were built to receive Communists among others, were they not?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Jews?
KÖRNER: Yes, as far as they were known to be enemies of the State.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were Jews also regarded as enemies of the State?
KÖRNER: Generally not; only when they had been recognized as such.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Recognized as such—what, as Jews?
KÖRNER: No, if a Jew was recognized as an enemy of the State, he was treated as an enemy of the State.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was the test as to whether he was an enemy of the State?
KÖRNER: Well, his attitude, his active participation in actions hostile to the State.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Such as what? What actions?
KÖRNER: I cannot give any details. I was not Chief of the Gestapo, and therefore I do not know any details.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were you not with Göring as his secretary during the time he was Chief of the Gestapo?
KÖRNER: In April 1933 I became State Secretary in the Prussian State Ministry.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did you not have to do with concentration camps under the secret police as such?
KÖRNER: No, I had nothing to do with that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who handled that for Göring?
KÖRNER: The then Ministerialdirektor Diels.
MR; JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you know that, in setting up the Secret State Police, Göring used SS men to man the Gestapo?
KÖRNER: I cannot remember that any more.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were a member of the SS, were you not?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was your office in the SS?
KÖRNER: I never held any office in the SS, neither was I in charge of an SS formation. I was just a member of the SS.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were you not Obergruppenführer?
KÖRNER: Yes, I was an SS-Obergruppenführer.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, as to these unauthorized concentration camps, you were asked who set them up, and I do not think you answered. Will you tell us about who set up these concentration camps?
KÖRNER: I remember two camps. In the case of one, I know for certain it was Gruppenführer Heines, in Breslau.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Gruppenführer of what?
KÖRNER: SA-Gruppenführer Heines, in Breslau.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who was the other?
KÖRNER: I cannot say exactly. I believe it was Karpfenstein, but I am not sure of it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who was he?
KÖRNER: Karpfenstein was Gauleiter in Stettin.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the Gauleiter was a Party official?
KÖRNER: Yes, he was a Party official.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the concentration camps were designed to take care of not only enemies of the State but enemies of the Party, were they not?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The Prime Minister of Prussia was the Chief of the Secret State Police?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And in his absence the State Secretary of the State Ministry was to act as Chief of the Secret State Police?
KÖRNER: No, that was Diels.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Was that not the law, whatever was done about it? Did you not know that that was the law under which the Secret State Police was set up, Section 1, Paragraph 2?
KÖRNER: I cannot remember that law any more. I no longer know the details.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know the law of 30 November 1933? You do not know the law under which you were operating?
KÖRNER: I do not remember that law now. I would have to see it again.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, what was wrong with these concentration camps that they had to be closed down?
KÖRNER: These unauthorized concentration camps had been established without permission of the then Prussian Prime Minister and for that reason he prohibited them immediately.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is the only reason, that they were set up without this authority?
KÖRNER: I believe so; yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And he had them stopped immediately?
KÖRNER: Stopped; yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Göring did not tolerate concentration camps that were not under his control and the Führer backed him up in it, is that right?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, from time to time complaints came to you about the treatment of people in concentration camps, during all the time you were with Göring, did they not?
KÖRNER: Yes, there were frequent complaints.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What did they complain of?
KÖRNER: Various things.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Tell the Tribunal what the complaints were with which you had to deal.
KÖRNER: Well, mostly from relatives of the people taken to concentration camps whose release was applied for; or complaints that these people had been taken to a concentration camp without reason.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is, that they were innocent people, innocent of any offense?
KÖRNER: The relatives asserted this.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you do anything to get them released from concentration camps?
KÖRNER: The Reich Marshal had ordered that all complaints were to be replied to. Every case was