Next day, another message came from the khan, desiring again to know on what account I had come to his court; to which I answered, that this might be known from the letters of Bantu. But they said that these letters were lost, and the khan had forgotten their contents, and would know of me. Somewhat emboldened by this, I said, "The duty and office of our religion is to preach the gospel unto all. Wherefore, having heard of the fame of, the Mongals, I desired to come to them; and hearing that Sartach had become a Christian, I directed my journey to him, and my sovereign the king of the French sent him letters containing good words of friendship, testifying what men we were, and requesting we might be permitted to remain with the people of Moal That Sartach had sent us to Baatu, and he had ordered us to Mangu-khan, whom we had entreated and still do entreat to suffer us to stay." They wrote all this, and made a report of it to the khan. On the morrow he sent again that he knew we had no message for him, but came to pray for him as other priests did, but desired to know if any of our ambassadors had ever been in their country, or any of theirs in our parts. Then I declared unto them all I knew respecting David and Friar Andrew, all of which was put down in writing and laid before Mangu. They came back, saying, "Our lord the khan thinks you have staid long here, and his pleasure is that you return into your own country; but he desires to know whether you would conduct his ambassadors along with you." To this I answered, that I dared not to carry his ambassadors beyond his own dominions, as a warlike nation dwelt between their country and ours, between the sea and the mountains, and being only a poor monk, I could not take upon me to be their guide. This they likewise set down in writing and carried to the khan.
The Nestorians were commanded to set down in writing all that they would speak in favour of the Christian religion; and they wrote out a chronicle from the creation of the world to the passion of Christ; and passing over the passion, they spake of the resurrection of the dead, and of the day of judgment. Finding many things wrong, I pointed them out, and we wrote out the creed or symbol. Asking them how they meant to proceed in the conference, they said they meant to begin with the Saracens; but I dissuaded them from that, because, as they agreed with us in the belief of one only God, they would assist against the Tuinians. I then pointed out to them the original of idolatry in the world; and they desired me to explain these things before Mangu, and then to let them speak, because I should find it difficult and tedious to speak by an interpreter. I then proposed to try them, by taking the side of the Tuinians, while they should defend the opinions of the Christians; but they knew not how to prove any thing, except merely by quoting their Scriptures. To this I said, that these men believed not in our Scriptures, and would oppose them by advancing contrary opinions and positions from those books which they accounted holy. Then I desired that they would allow me to speak first; since if I were overcome they would be permitted to speak, whereas if they were confuted, I would be refused a hearing, and to this they consented.
All things being arranged, we convened at our oratory, and Mangu-khan sent three of his secretaries, a Christian, a Saracen, and a Tuinian, to be judges of the controversy. It was first proclaimed, "This is the order of Mangu-khan, and none dare say that the commandment of God is otherwise. Let none speak contentiously, or use injurious words to one another, or make any tumult whereby this business may be hindered, upon pain of death." There was a great assembly, as every party had convened the wisest of their sect, and many others came flocking around to listen; but all were silent. The Christians set me in the middle, willing that I should contend with the Tuinians; who murmured against Mangu, as no khan had ever thus endeavoured to search into their secrets. Yet they opposed one from Kathay to me, who had his interpreter, while I had the son of the goldsmith to interpret my words. The Kathayan said to me, "Friend! if you be put to a nonplus, who must seek a wiser than thou art?" To this I made no reply. Then he demanded whether I would dispute as to how the world was made, or as to what became of the souls after death? For they were desirous to begin with these questions, as they held them for the strongest in their doctrines, all the Tuinians following the heresy of the Manicheans, believing in a good and a bad principle, and they all believe that souls pass from body to body. In confirmation of this, the goldsmith told me they had brought a person from Kathay, who, by the size of his body, appeared to be only three years old, yet was capable of reasoning, and knew how to write, and who affirmed that he had passed through three several bodies. Even one of the wisest of the Nestorians demanded of me whether the souls of brutes could fly to any place after death where they should not be compelled to labour.
To the before-mentioned question of the Kathayan, I answered: "Friend, this ought hot to be the commencement of our conference. All things are of God, who is the fountain and head of us all; and therefore we ought first to speak concerning God, of whom you think otherwise than you ought, and Mangu desires to know which of us hath the better belief." The arbitrators allowed this to be reasonable, and I proceeded: "We firmly believe that there is but one God in perfect unity; what believe you?" He said, "Fools say there is but one God, but wise men say there are many. There are great lords in your country, and here is still a greater, even Mangu-khan. So it is of the Gods, as in divers countries there are divers gods." To this I answered: "You make a bad comparison between God and men; for in this way every mighty man might be called a God in his own country." And when I meant to have dissolved the similitude, he prevented me, by asking, "What manner of God is yours, who you say is but one?" I answered: "Our God, beside whom there is no other, is omnipotent, and therefore needeth not the help of any other; whereas all have need of his help. It is not so with men, as no man can do all things; wherefore there must be many lords on earthy as no one can support all. God is omniscient, or knoweth all things; and therefore hath no need of any counsellor, for all wisdom is from him. God is perfectly good; and needs not therefore any good from us. In God we live and move and have our being. Such is our God, and you must not hold that there is any other." "It is not so," said he; "for there is one highest in heaven, whose origin or generation we know not, and there are ten under him, and on earth they are infinite in number." To this he would have added other fables. I asked him respecting the highest God, of whom he had spoken, whether he were omnipotent, or if any of the inferior Gods were so? And fearing to answer this, he demanded, "Why, since our God was perfectly good, he had made the half of all things evil?" To this I answered, that this was false; for whosoever maketh any evil is no God, and all things whatsoever are good. At this all the Tuiuians were astonished, and set it down in writing as false or impossible. He then asked me, "Whence cometh evil?" "You ask amiss," said I, "for you ought first to inquire what evil is, before you ask whence it comes: But let us return to the first question, whether do you believe that any God is omnipotent? and when that is discussed, I will answer whatever you may demand." On this he sat a long time without speaking, and the judges appointed by the khan commanded him to make answer. At length he said, that no God was omnipotent; on which all the Saracens broke out into great laughter. When silence was restored, I said, "None of your gods, therefore, can save you in all dangers, since chances may happen in which they have no power. Besides, no man can serve two masters; how, therefore, can you serve so many Gods in heaven and in earth?" The auditory decreed that he should make answer to this, but he held his peace.
When I was about to have propounded reasons to prove the truth of the divine essence, and to have explained the doctrine of the Trinity, the Nestorians alleged that I had said quite enough, and that now they meant to speak; so I gave place to them. When, therefore, they would have disputed with the Saracens, these men said that they agreed to the truth of the law and the gospel of the Christian, and would not dispute with them in any thing, and even confessed that they beg from God in their prayers that they may die the death of the Christians. There was among the idolaters a priest of the sect of the Jugurs, who believe in one God, and yet make idols. With this man the Nestorians talked much, shewing all things till the coming of Christ to judgment, and explaining the Trinity to him and the Saracens by similitudes. All of them hearkened to their harangue without attempting to make any contradiction; yet none of them said that they believed and would become Christians. The conference was now broken up. The Nestorians and Saracens sang together with a loud voice, and the Tuinians held their peace; and afterwards they all drank together most plentifully.
SECTION XXXVIII.
The last audience of Rubruquis with Mangu-khan, and the letter he received