Mr. Oswald. That is my understanding, too, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And was that the understanding at the time you gave Marina this advice?
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. Dulles. Do you know whether Mr. Paine stayed there from time to time, or he just visited his wife? I understand they are separated, and not divorced. Isn't that correct?
Mr. Jenner. That is my understanding.
Mr. Oswald. That is my understanding, also.
And in answer to your question, sir, I became aware of this on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, at the Dallas police office.
Mr. Jenner. Aware of the separation?
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. As the Paines were about to depart with Marina and the children and my mother. And the statement was made by Mr. Paine that he would—I believe this to be my best recollection—that he would take them out there and return to his apartment, at which time the looks on both my mother's and myself's faces asked the question to Mrs. Paine, without saying anything, and she said, "Well, it is a difficult situation, I will explain it on the way."
Mr. Jenner. And that increased your antipathy?
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. Jenner. And the decision was made, as you have related then, that Marina would reside with the Martins?
Mr. Oswald. Not on Wednesday night, sir.
On Thursday, the ensuing night.
Mr. Jenner. The following day?
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And you have told us about that.
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Now, you had occasion to observe, did you not, the treatment of FBI agents of your mother, at least in your presence? Their attitude towards her and their treatment of her?
Mr. Oswald. Sir, I do not recall any FBI agents in the presence of my mother.
Mr. Jenner. You do not?
Mr. Oswald. If I may, sir—I believe you have reference to the United States Secret Service agents there.
Mr. Jenner. No. I was going to ask you that. But Representative Ford has a question which he has limited, however, to the FBI, so I did want to cover that.
You have no basis for an opinion, then, as to the treatment of your mother, Marguerite, accorded to her by the—by FBI agents?
Mr. Oswald. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. You might have an opinion, but you have no—well, I will withdraw that.
Now, I ask you, likewise, with respect to the Secret Service agents.
Mr. Oswald. There was some friction with one agent and my mother, whom she seemed to resent very harshly, any time this agent spoke to her.
Mr. Jenner. You used the word "harshly." Does that include "unjustly" in your opinion?
Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it would not.
Mr. Jenner. Did you share the opinion that the Secret Service agent you have in mind was treating her harshly?
Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I would not be of that opinion. And the Secret Service agent in question here is Mr. Charlie Kunkel.
Mr. Jenner. During this period, did you have a good impression of him?
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. Jenner. Having in mind all of the circumstances, and the stresses, and his duties, do you have an opinion as to whether he accorded her normal and expected courtesy and proper treatment?
Mr. Oswald. Only on one occasion I might have a hesitation to give a positive answer to that, sir. This occurred at the Inn of the Six Flags, in Arlington, Texas. As Mr. Kunkel was going out the front door one day—I do not recall the day—I would say this would be approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963—there was a brief exchange at the doorway between Mr. Kunkel and my mother, of which I am attempting to recall, at which time my mother stated to him to the best of my remembrance, that "Please, sir, don't say anything to me at all."
And Mr. Kunkel's reply was—and he was irritated—that he would not unless he had to, and for her not to please say anything to him.
And that was the end of that.
Mr. Jenner. That is the only harshness, if you would call it harshness, that you observed occurring between any Secret Service agent and your mother?
Mr. Oswald. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. Your mother has made an assertion before the Commission that she believes that the FBI should have interviewed her, and she asserts that the FBI did not interview her.
Do you have any information on that subject?
Mr. Oswald. Are we referring to the period of the week of November 25, sir?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. Oswald. May I have your question again, please?
(The reporter read the pending question.)
Mr. Oswald. During the week of November 25, 1963, my mother, Mrs. Marguerite C. Oswald, was not interviewed by FBI agents.
I might add nor myself by the FBI agents.
And the only person out there, to my knowledge, that was interviewed by the FBI agents was Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. Dulles. You had been interviewed, though, at a previous time by FBI agents, had you not?
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. Dulles. I think that is indicated in your diary.
Mr. Jenner. I will touch on that subject in due course.
But Representative Boggs' area of questioning is confined to your mother. Do you have any—do you know why the FBI did not interview your mother?
Mr. Oswald. The FBI did not arrive at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Texas, until, to the best of my memory, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. There is a possibility this might have been Tuesday, November 26th. But I do believe it was Wednesday.
And their purpose of coming out there at that time, as stated to me by a United States Secret Service man, Mike Howard, was to interview Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. Jenner. And did they do so?
Mr. Oswald. They did, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And did they interview your mother?
Mr. Oswald. No, sir, they did not.
Mr. Jenner. Did they interview you?
Mr. Oswald. No, sir, they did not.
If I may, sir—in reply to your question whether or not they interviewed Mrs. Marina N. Oswald at that time, they attempted to interview her at that time.
Mr. Jenner. Was there an interpreter present?
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, there was. It was Mr. Lee Gopadze of the United States Secret Service.
Mr. Jenner. And you emphasize the word "attempt". Would you describe the circumstances and what occurred?
Mr. Oswald. When the FBI agents arrived there—I can identify one of them as a Mr. Brown, even though I know there are two or three Mr. Browns that I have met in the FBI—I do not know his initials—the other man I cannot remember his name. When the two agents and Mr. Gopadze came in, Marina immediately identified or recognized one of the agents who she had talked to before, and it is my understanding now, at the Paines' home in Irving, Texas.
Mr. Jenner. When?
Mr. Oswald. It is my understanding some time in the early part of 1963, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And did Marina state that, or did someone state that