There is no relationship between these two flowers at all, so there is no point in comparing and contrasting the unique flowers that Nature has thrown up from time to time. They, in their own ways, have had some impact, although the whole thing resulted in some tiny colonies fighting amongst themselves, that's all. It goes on and on and on. Who is called upon to save this world?
Q: Couldn't you say it's a colony of flowers?
UG: But each flower has its own fragrance. If it had not been for the heritage of man, which we are so proud of, we would have had so many flowers like this. So it has destroyed what Nature.... (It's not that I am interpreting or understanding Nature's ways, the purpose of evolution, or any such thing; there may not be any such thing as evolution at all. If it had not been for the culture, Nature would have thrown up many more flowers — so this has become a stumbling block to man's freeing himself in his own way. What is responsible for his difficulty is this thing, you see, the culture.
So, that flower — what value has that flower to mankind? What value has it? You can look at it, admire it, write a piece of poetry, paint it, or you can crush it and throw it away or feed your cow with it — but still it is there. It is of no use to the society at all, but it is there.
If it had not been for the culture, the world would have produced more flowers, different kinds and different varieties of flowers, not only the one rose
that you are so proud of. You want to turn everything into one model. What for? Whereas nature would have thrown up, from time to time, different flowers, unique each in its own way, beautiful each in its own way. That possibility has been destroyed by this culture, which has a stranglehold on man, which prevents him from freeing himself from the burden of the entire past.
Q: That natural state is the same as the real man?
UG: Yes, he ceases to be somebody else; he is what he is, uh?
Q: Sir, you attained this in your forty-ninth year?
UG: This shock, this lightning, hitting me with the greatest force, shattered everything, blasted every cell and gland in my body — the whole chemistry seems to have changed. There's no scientific evidence or medical man to certify that, but I'm not interested in satisfying anyone's curiosity, because I am not selling this, I am not collecting followers and teaching them how to bring about this change. It's something which you cannot bring about through any volition or effort of yours; it just happens. I say it is acausal. What its purpose is, I really don't know, but it is something, you see.
Q: A transformation has come about?
UG: The whole chemistry of the body changes, so it begins to function in its own natural way. That means everything that is poisoned (I deliberately use that word) and contaminated by the culture is thrown out of the system. It is thrown out of your system, and then that consciousness or life (or whatever you want to call it) expresses itself and functions in a very natural way. The whole thing has to be thrown out of your system; otherwise, if you don't believe in God, you become an atheist and you teach, preach and proselytize (to ) atheism. But this individual is neither a theist, nor an atheist, nor an agnostic; he is what he is.
The movement that has been created by the heritage of man, which is trying to make you into something different from what you are, comes to an end, and so what you are begins to express itself, that's all, in its own way, unhindered, unhandicapped, unburdened by the past of man, mankind as a whole. So such a man is of no use to the society; on the other hand he becomes a threat.
Q: The question of being useful doesn't arise?
UG: It doesn't at all. He doesn't think that he is chosen, chosen by some power to reform the world. He doesn't think that he is a saviour or a free man or an enlightened man.
Q: Yes, the moment he says he is the saviour of mankind, he establishes a tradition.
UG: So, the moment the followers fit him into the tradition, there arises a need for somebody else to break away from that tradition — that is all.
Q: When Vivekananda asked Ramakrishna whether he had seen, he replied "Yes, I have." What did he mean by that?
UG: You have to ask him. I can't answer. I don't know what he meant by that. But I have explained to you....
Q: Perhaps every concept has relevance in a particular framework. Now he's outside that, and all those things are irrelevant, so he doesn't care to answer.
UG: I don't care what Ramakrishna said, or what Sankara said, or what Buddha said.
Q: You've thrown it all out?
UG: Don't use that word. It has gone out of my system; not that I have thrown it out or any such thing. It has just gone out of my entire system. So whatever I say stands or falls by itself; it doesn't need the support of any authority of any kind. That is why such a man is a threat to the society. He's a threat to the tradition because he's undermining the whole foundation of the heritage.
Q: You talk of the seven hills, the seven days....
UG: There's no significance to the seven or to the things that happened to me during the seven days — no significance at all. All that is occult stuff. There's nothing to occultism at all. There's no significance to all that.
As I very often tell my friends, I don't come to India to liberate people, I don't come to lecture to people; I come here — it's a personal thing — to avoid the harsh winter in Europe — and it's less expensive here. My talking to people is incidental — I mean it — otherwise I would get up on a platform. What is the point in getting up on a platform? I am not interested. I have no message to give.
Q: Everyone can attain this natural state, but it's not in his hands?
UG: It's not in his hands; it's not in anybody's hands. But you have one thousand per cent certainty because it is not that it is my special privilege or that I'm specially chosen by anything; it's there in you. That's what I mean by saying there's no power outside of man. It is the same power, the same life, that is functioning there in you. The culture you are talking about is pushing it down. Something is trying to express itself, and the culture is pushing it down. When once it throws the culture out, then it expresses itself in its own way.
Q: Do those who have undergone this transformation have any common characteristics?
UG: That question does not arise here. If I compared myself to a saint, it would be my tragedy. We don't belong to a common fraternity, a common brotherhood, or any such thing. What is it that is common to a rose, a daffodil, and a grass flower? Each one is uniquely beautiful in its own way. Each one has its own beauty. Whether you like it or not — that's a different thing.
Q: Is uniqueness the index to this transformation?
UG: No, this individual does not feel he is unique.
Q: No. But for others?
UG: Probably. You see, the expression of that is bound to be unique. When this kind of thing happens to you, you will begin to express your own uniqueness in quite a different way. How it will express itself, you do not know