It should be added that few people are likely to be aware that their preferences would lead to cutting off all aid to Israel. To understand this consequence one would have to escape the grip of the powerful and largely uniform doctrinal system, which labors to project an image of U.S. benevolence, Israeli righteousness, and Palestinian terror and obstructionism, whatever the facts.
To answer your question, U.S. policy might well change if the United States became a functioning democratic society, in which an informed public has a meaningful voice in policy formation. That’s the task for activists and organizers, not just in this case. One can think of other possible conditions that might lead to a change in U.S. policy, but none that holds anywhere near as much promise as this one.
Al Jazeera reported that Tony Blair could soon be appointed the Middle East Quartet’s envoy. What message do you think this will send to the Palestinians and others around the region?
Perhaps the most apt comment was by the fine Lebanese political analyst Rami Khouri. He said that “appointing Tony Blair as special envoy for Arab-Israeli peace is something like appointing the Emperor Nero to be the chief fireman of Rome.”6 Blair was indeed appointed as an envoy, but not as the Quartet’s envoy, except in name. The Bush administration made it very clear at once that he is Washington’s envoy, with a very limited mandate. It announced in no uncertain terms that Secretary of State Rice (and the president) would retain unilateral control over the important issues, while Blair would be permitted to deal only with problems of institution building, an impossible task as long as Washington maintains its extreme rejectionist policies. Europe had no noticeable reaction to yet another slap in the face. Washington evidently assumes that Blair will continue to be “the spear carrier for the pax americana,” as his role was described in the journal of Britain’s Royal Institute of International Affairs.7
Do you think that the corporate media in the United States should worry about its lies and fantasies being exposed in online independent media (ZNet, CounterPunch, etc.), or is there a finite limit on how far these alternative media can ever penetrate the consciousness of a population like that in the United States?
For the present, the media—and the intellectual community—need not be too concerned about the exposure of “lies and fantasies.” The limit is determined by the strength and commitment of popular movements. They certainly face barriers, but there is no reason to think they are insurmountable ones.
Due to constant pressure and lobbying by Professor Alan Dershowitz, Professor Norman Finkelstein was recently denied tenure at DePaul. Why does someone like Dershowitz have so much influence that he can make an institution break its own rules?
Dershowitz has been repeatedly exposed as a dedicated liar, charlatan, and opponent of elementary civil rights, and he is, uncontroversially, an extreme apologist for the crimes and violence of the State of Israel. But he is taken seriously by the media and the academic world. That tells us quite a lot about the reigning intellectual culture. As to why institutions succumb, few are willing to endure the deluge of slanders, lies, and defamation poured out by Dershowitz, the Anti-Defamation League, and other apologists for the crimes of their favored state, who are granted free rein with little concern about response. Merely to illustrate, Dershowitz’s books are treated with reverence by the Boston Globe, probably the most liberal paper in the country, but they refuse even to review Norman Finkelstein’s carefully documented demonstration that they are an absurd collection of fabrication and deceit. Authentic scholarship knows better, as the record clearly shows. But it receives little attention.
For the late Edward W. Said, the solution was one state where all the citizens (Arabs, Jews, Christians, etc.) would have the same democratic rights. Do you think that because of the situation in Gaza and the ever-spreading settlements, the pendulum will now swing toward a one-state solution as being the only possible end point to the conflict?
Two points of clarification are necessary. First, there is a crucial difference between a one-state solution and a binational state. In general, nation-states have been imposed with substantial violence and repression for one reason—because they seek to force varied and complex populations into a single mold. One of the more healthy developments in Europe today is the revival of some degree of regional autonomy and cultural identity, reflecting somewhat more closely the nature of the populations. In the case of Israel-Palestine, a one-state solution will arise only on the U.S. model: with extermination or expulsion of the indigenous population. A sensible approach would be advocacy of a binational solution, recognizing that the territory now includes two fairly distinct societies.
The second point is that Edward Said—an old and close friend—was one of the earliest and most outspoken supporters of a two-state solution. By the 1990s, he felt that the opportunity had been lost, and he proposed, without much specification, a unitary state, by which I am sure he would have meant a binational state. I purposely use the word “propose,” not “advocate.” The distinction is crucial. We can propose that everyone should live in peace and harmony. The proposal rises to the level of advocacy when we sketch a path from here to there. In the case of a unitary (binational) solution, the only advocacy I know of passes through a number of stages: first a two-state settlement in terms of the international consensus that the United States and Israel have prevented, followed by moves toward binational federation, and finally closer integration, perhaps to a binational democratic state, as circumstances allow.
It is of some interest that when binationalist federation, opening the way to closer integration, was feasible—from 1967 to the mid-1970s—suggestions to this effect (my own writings, for example) elicited near hysteria. Today, when they are completely unfeasible, they are treated with respect in the mainstream (New York Times, New York Review of Books, etc.). The reason, I suspect, is that a call today for a one-state settlement is a gift to the jingoist right, who can then wail that “they are trying to destroy us” so we must destroy them in self-defense. But true advocacy of a binational state seems to me just as appropriate as it has always been. That has been my unchanged opinion since the 1940s. Advocacy, that is, not mere proposal.
Looking ahead, what do you consider to be the best-case, worst-case, and most likely scenarios for the boundaries and control of occupied Palestine in the next ten years?
The worst case would be the destruction of Palestine. The best case in the short term would be a two-state settlement in terms of the international consensus. That is by no means impossible. It is supported by virtually the entire world, including the majority of the U.S. population. It has come rather close, once, during the last month of Clinton’s presidency, the sole U.S. departure from extreme rejectionism in the past thirty years. The United States lent its support to the negotiations in Taba, Egypt (in January 2001), which came very close to a settlement in the general terms of the international consensus, before they were called off prematurely by Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak. In their final press conference, the negotiators expressed some hope that if they had been permitted to continue their joint work, a settlement could have been reached. The years since have seen many horrors, but the possibility remains. As for the most likely scenario, it looks unpleasantly close to the worst case, but human affairs are not predictable: too much depends on will and choice.
Would you agree with Edward Said when he said, “The most demoralising aspect of the Zionist-Palestinian conflict is the almost total opposition between the mainstream Israeli and Palestinian points of view…Might it not make sense for a group of universally respected historians and intellectuals, composed equally of Palestinians and Israelis, to hold a series of meetings to try to agree [to] a modicum of truth about where this conflict actually lies…for them to agree on a body of facts…who took what from whom, who did what to whom…something like a Historical Truth and Political Justice Committee”?8
Who are the “respected historians and intellectuals”? Edward had much more faith in the importance and the integrity of respected intellectuals than I do. That aside, I do not think there is very much dispute about the bare facts, except for fringe liars. Disputes have to do with selection and interpretation.
The University and College Union in Britain voted in favor of