Mr. Oswald. Sir, I believe I mean a live fish. A cold, dead fish would be stiff.
Mr. McKenzie. All right.
Mr. Jenner. We are seeking to obtain the basis upon which you made this entry.
Mr. Oswald. It was Mr. Paine's general appearance and the manner in which he held himself, and by this I mean the way he stood and the way he looked at you, and you had that feeling, as I stated before, that he was not really looking at you.
Mr. Dulles. You say there that Mrs. Paine introduced Mr. Paine to you. When had you previously made the acquaintance of Mrs. Paine—just before this?
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. Dulles. On that same day?
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. Jenner. And you record that in your memorandum, do you not, on a previous page?
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. Jenner. The fact of the introduction?
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do so.
Mr. Jenner. I think the Commission would be interested further in explaining your remark "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." What did you mean by that? That is on page 6.
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I just wanted to verify that this was still under my date, original entry of December 6, 1963.
At the time I wrote the statement, "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." I meant by this statement that I had gathered that after our meeting of November 22, 1963, at the Dallas police station, to the date of December 6, 1963, that Mr. Paine and Mrs. Paine were separated, and that I had read approximately at this time—and I am not sure that I had read this particular thing in the newspaper prior to December 6, 1963—but I feel like I did—that in a Dallas paper it referred to an incident at a Grand Prairie Rifle Range where some people had identified Lee as being at this rifle range, and that on one occasion a man, and the description was given in the newspaper, had handed Lee Harvey Oswald a rifle over this fence where he was standing inside the rifle range. As I read this description in the newspaper, I reached the conclusion from that description that it was Mr. Paine.
Mr. Jenner. Any other basis that you now recall upon which you predicated the statement that, "Somehow Mr. and Mrs. Paine are involved in this affair."
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; if the newspaper I read at that particular time is dated after December 6, 1963, the statement that I just read a few minutes ago, "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair"—I made that statement then based on my meeting Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas police station on Friday night, November 22, 1963.
Mr. Jenner. Now, would you please describe Mr. Paine as he appeared on that particular occasion—first, his physical appearance, and then follow with how he was dressed. Give his height, weight, color of eyes and hair, as you recall them.
Mr. Oswald. I recall Mr. Paine to be approximately 6 feet in height. I do not recall the color of his hair. He is of slender build. Perhaps I would establish his weight around 160 or 165 pounds. His facial appearance was quite drawn—and this is a conclusion on my part, because I had not met him before—he appeared to be quite drawn in the face.
His eyes, I would say, would have to me a hollow look.
Mr. Jenner. What color were his eyes?
Mr. Oswald. I do not know, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You don't presently recall?
Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. Jenner. You made no note of it at the time?
Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. Jenner. What was his complexion—ruddy, pale?
Mr. Oswald. I would say his complexion would be ruddy complected.
Mr. Jenner. Was he clean shaven?
Mr. Oswald. To the best of my recollection, he was, sir.
Mr. Jenner. No mustache, no beard?
Mr. Oswald. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What else did you notice about his appearance? How did he part his hair? Do you recall?
Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether he did part it?
Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not. I believe this to be correct—that I never did get any higher than looking at Mr. Paine's eyes, and I do not believe I looked at his hair or above his eyes at any time.
Mr. Jenner. How long were you with Mr. Paine on that occasion?
Mr. Oswald. Approximately five minutes.
Mr. Jenner. Had you ever seen Mr. Paine subsequently thereto?
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. Jenner. On how many occasions?
Mr. Oswald. On one other occasion, sir.
Mr. Jenner. When?
Mr. Oswald. This would be approximately a Sunday afternoon in the middle of December 1963.
Mr. Jenner. That would be approximately a week after you made this entry?
Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. In the presence of Mr. Jim H. Martin, and Mr. John Thorne. We traveled from Mr. Martin's home to the Paines' house in Irving to pick up Marina's and Lee's clothes that were still there.
Mr. Jenner. Still at the Paines' home?
Mr. Oswald. Still at the Paines' home. I saw Mr. and Mrs. Paine again on that day—I mean at that time. That was my second and only time I have ever seen them. Mr. and Mrs. Paine helped gather up the belongings of Marina and the children and Lee's personal belongings that were still there.
Mr. Jenner. To make it clear, Mr. Oswald, did Mr. Paine accompany you with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne to the Paine home, or did you meet Mr. Paine when you arrived there?
Mr. Oswald. We met Mr. Paine and Mrs. Paine on our arrival at their home in Irving, Texas.
Mr. Jenner. How long were you there?
Mr. Oswald. Approximately 45 minutes to an hour.
Mr. Jenner. How was he clothed on that occasion?
Mr. Oswald. In a sport shirt and a pair of slacks, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And how was he clothed on the occasion that you record here on page 6?
Mr. Oswald. I believe also at that time, sir, that he had a sport shirt on and a pair of slacks, and perhaps a sport jacket or jacket of some type.
Mr. Jenner. Was his head covered on either occasion?
Mr. Oswald. No. sir, it was not.
Mr. Jenner. What did you notice, if anything, as to whether he had straight hair or a full head of hair on him? Was he bald?
You have already said you don't recall the color of his hair, am I correct on that?
Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.
In referring to the second meeting of Mr. Paine and myself, in reference to his hair, I would say his hair was practically a full set of hair, dark and short.
Mr. Jenner. When you say short, you mean cut short, or a crew cut?
Mr. Oswald. No, sir, just cut short.
Mr. Jenner. How do you describe your own head of hair, as to its cut? Is it cut short?
Mr. Oswald. Presently, I would describe wearing mine at a medium length, for myself.
Mr. McKenzie. How about Mr. Jenner's?
Mr.