I think, too, that the book was ahead of its time, because the Haida people in Raven’s Cry are not the “Other” encountered by the maritime traders and explorers. Rather, the Haida people are the central actors in this book; the story revolves around them. And that makes a real difference. This is the very thing that is being said today, that we need histories from the perspective of the native people, and that is what Christie Harris attempted more than twenty-five years ago.
RD
For the time period it was good documentation. I was very impressed, and it really moved me when I read it. And the illustrations are also, I feel, ahead of their time. When I first saw the illustrations, I was impressed by the emotions that Bill Reid put into them. You could feel the smallpox epidemic. You could feel the storm.
MB
To someone who didn’t know anything about contemporary native art, which at that time was really just in its beginning stages, Bill Reid’s drawings made clear that there’s an art here that’s very much alive. The richness that Raven’s Cry pointed to both in terms of historical documentation and artistic legacy was particularly impressive.
Do you think Raven’s Cry will stand as an inspiration for native people to do their own history? I don’t know what effect it has had among native people.
RD
People are aware of it. When the book was first published, it was read. It was a book people knew about. It’s certainly a book I would keep on the shelf as a reference. In this part of my life I’m really going into depth on Haida history and Haida ideas. I’m learning the lineages, the lineage system, the importance of Haida kinship. We have to know our history before we can move on, and this book provides elementary and easy-to-read insights.
MB
I do think the book has to be read as one family’s perspective on Haida history, because it’s very much the story of the Edenshaw lineage. Chief 7idansuu’s rivals, Chief 7wii•aa and his family, are not portrayed particularly favorably in this book because events are seen through the eyes of the Edenshaw family. So it should not be viewed as a Haida history. Probably Haida history was always viewed through the eyes of particular actors and their respective lineages.
RD
It’s really interesting to work with you, because you have a different approach and you’re educated in a different way. Just to be off the subject a little—some of the information that’s in your book on my grandmother, During My Time, she had said to me or I’d overheard her say to someone, but she’d never explained why. Your book makes those things clear.
MB
I guess as an anthropologist and as an outsider, I always demanded the why, whereas if you’re part of the family you don’t necessarily demand it. You also made the point several years ago that there’s a lot to be learned through doing. I could talk with your grandmother, Florence Davidson, and ask her about a certain mask and a certain dance, but that’s very different thing from you, with your dance group, the Rainbow Creek Dancers, getting instruction from her in preparing to perform a dance. Putting on a potlatch and receiving advice and instruction from your grandmother is very different from me asking, “Tell me about potlatches.”
RD
The experience of having hosted several potlatches has made me realize that the potlatch was always in transition. It was always developing. One of my favorite stories came out of one of the meetings to plan a potlatch that I was hosting. The questions overflowed the answers or the ideas or the information or the knowledge, and so one elder said, “You do it. You know how to do it. You’ve been doing potlatching for years. We’ll follow you.” And that gave me a licence to be creative.
My grandmother would explain certain things to me, like a particular song, and I would say to her, “How should I carve the mask?” She’d say, “Make it smile.” And then in singing the song over and over and over again, and finally connecting the song with the mask, the song is saying, “7eeyaa aa mee.” 7eeyaa means “I’m in awe,” and so I said, “Wow, that’s why you can make this mask smile, because it’s portraying another expression of that idea.” And so in learning some of those values and ideas, we’re able to add to the development of those songs and dances and also to give meaning to those old songs, those old dances. It was really exciting to discover that.
In doing the songs and dances over and over again, we started to gain confidence. We also felt a little bored, because we’d done them before, so we started challenging ourselves to come up with new ideas, new dances, new masks and so on. And that is no different from how things were back in 1790 or 1450. It’s no different because every generation goes through change. Now I feel we have to go through a redefinition of who we are because some of the old ideas don’t work. When we start to redefine ourselves, it is no different from a hundred or two hundred years ago when people also went through redefinition.
MB
I think that’s true with any culture, that there’s a constant definition and redefinition of who you are as things change. Culture is always being created. And it’s people who create culture. Why can’t you create and define traditions for today and tomorrow, drawing upon what you want from the past and what seems meaningful for the present as well?
RD
There were three strong forces that helped to change the pattern. First, there were the epidemics that wiped out eighty-eight per cent of the Haida, and then there were the missionaries who instilled their values which are still affecting people today, and then there were the anthropologists. I feel these are the obstacles I had to overcome to become a creative person within Haida culture. I had to confront Christianity. I had to confront the anthropological view of Haida. I had to confront the devastation of the epidemics, because my dad was a product of that. My grandmother was a product of that. Their parents were a product of that. And so those bruises were handed down from generation to generation.
MB
We should take up the topic of the anthropological view of things, because that’s interesting.
RD
When I first came to Vancouver, I met an incredible barrage of anthropologists. I regarded them as people who held the knowledge, and so I was afraid to say anything in front of them for fear of saying the wrong thing. I was intimidated, and it took me years to break through that barrier so I could challenge and also start to be creative within those cultural ideas.
For example, a friend of mine was doing an archaeological dig in Massett, and they found these bone tools. They spent hours and days trying to figure out what these tools were for, what they were. One day we visited a basket weaver, and this basket weaver was still using that same tool. They didn’t think to go to the village and say, “Hey, what’s this tool?” It’s like they held themselves above the native people, like they didn’t think we knew anything. I see that happening quite often.
Another example is when I was at the Royal British Columbia Museum. I saw this instrument and I knew what it was for, but I asked, “What is this for?” They said they didn’t know. And so I put it together and told them what it was for. I said, “Why don’t you people ask us once in a while?”
MB
“Cultural representation”—who has the authority to represent a culture—is becoming more and more of an issue in anthropology among native peoples. There is a long history of cultural representation being the domain of academic experts.
RD
Well, maybe it’s time for us to hold a conference and invite all the anthropologists so they can hear what we have to say. It’s time for us to start breaking our own trail.
